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Updated, Fri March 24 06 "Ottawa's team  in Danger of Folding again! Ottawa will get what they deserve!" from Great White North and Total-CFLers! Lots of Grey Cup 05 TV shows! Funny Grey Cup TV including Steve and Gavin 2 great #1 Ottawa fans in their legendary Ottawa Grey Cup overalls." Myk Aussie

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Fri March 24 06  The Ottawa Renegades are up for sale. The CFL made the announcement Wednesday, saying "a new approach" is needed in Ottawa.

For the very latest on the Ottawa situation check out Total-CFL.com Discussion. Click here

Below is a detailed report from the the very knowledgeable CFLers on the Total-CFL.com Discussion. Do you know CFL? Hope you can join the very knowledgeable CFLers on Total-CFL.com Discussion Click here " Myk Aussie

Started by GreatWhiteNorth last week “Ottawa will get what they deserve! Let me start this by saying that this isn't directed at the fans in the Ottawa that actually go out and buy tickets to support their team... they are unfortunate victims of circumstances here and I sympathize with them greatly.  I find it absolutely shocking that Ottawa is in danger of folding for a second time.  I couldn't imagine seeing fans in Winnipeg let this happen if they got another NHL team (not that it was their fault last time around), and would hope that Montrealers would never allow their city to once again be without the Alouettes.

I don't care what sort of circus has been in town for the last year (or even years), Ottawa pure and simply hasn't stuck with and supported the team.  A reported season ticket base of 2000 is ridiculous and the league low attendance of 18,000 and change last season is embarrassing.  They've had elements of local ownership that couldn't make it given the dismal economic support, and now they've got a deep-pocketed owner that was willing to run this as a hobby but can't justify the costs.  Quite frankly, I don't blame him for that given the support level the franchise sees.

Make no mistake, if this franchise folds, it will be a long time before there is football again in the nation's capital, and it's time for those in the region to speak with their wallets as to whether they care or not.  I realize that the franchise has been somewhat of a laughing stock at times, but it's not like there's going to be another to replace it, so are you going to step up or settle for nothing.  Whatever happens, IMHO, Ottawa will get exactly what it deserves, and I only hope that those true fans that have supported the team will not have to suffer for the apathy of the rest of the community.

From Cardiac Cowboy “Couldn't agree more.  I was coming here to post the same thing.  For all there faults the Gleibermans were willing to put money down for the team and try new things.  The reception they got from local media was appalling.  Now if the community really wants a team they need to rally around the team.  Here in Calgary we went through two SOS (save our Stamps) campaigns to keep them from folding.  If the 'Gades go god help the Senators if they ever fall on hard times.  Don't look for a white knight to come in and pick up the key off the desk if the team folds as there has been no indication that the team is viable under any ownership.

From Ravi Ramkissoonsingh “The Gliebermans spent their money very poorly however.  Lonie stripped the front office to the bare bones,  Do you folks know that there have only been 8 people working in the Renegades front office this entire off-season???  They have had virtually no marketing or advertising campaign and have essentially shut down for the off-season (much like David Braley did with the Lions after they won the 2000 Grey Cup).  How in the world can you increase your season ticket base when you don't even try to?  For the life of me, I do not understand why the Gliebermans couldn't just look around at the rest of the eastern division for clues on how to properly run their franchise.

From GreatWhiteNorth “I find it hard to believe that there were only 19,000 people in Ottawa smart enough to figure out when the games were and find their way to the stadium.  Marketing can certainly be important, but the dismal numbers have to be interpreted as lack of interest and demand to some degree.  It was apparent that the Gliebermans were selling on price, and hoping that the product would keep people coming back... and at $99 for season tickets, I don't know that there's a lot of reasons for a football fan not to have jumped on board if they were going to. Which comes first though... the paring of front office staff and marketing budgets or the apathy of the fan base.  Honestly, I'm guessing if they had healthy support from the fans and the community, then it would never have come to those drastic steps... it's not the kind of moves that you see from thriving businesses.

No doubt the Gliebermans made countless mistakes, from off-putting personnel handling to promotions that weren't well thought out.  The fans in Ottawa have to now decide whether they want football or not, and it may well be that the only way they'll get it is with Bernie Glieberman writing the cheques.  If he pulls out and they pull the plug, then I believe much of the blame falls on those in the Ottawa region that didn't support the team.

From Ravi Ramkissoonsingh “You are being far too easy on the Gliebermans, GWN.  Their poor management preceded the poor attendance IMO.  One of the first moves that they made was essentially paralyzing their media relations director.  By doing so, they guaranteed much less coverage and visibility in the media.  Also, shortly after taking over the team last May, Lonie started his slashing and burning campaign in the front office.  There were games last season where they didn't have enough personnel to handle the numbers of people who wanted to buy tickets.  Lonie was aware of these problems and did nothing, even after promising to improve the situation.  Furthermore, you don't just shut down the front office after drawing 19k fans per game during the previous season.  Considering what the Ottawa fans had to put up with last off-season, it was nothing short of amazing that they still drew that well, especially considering that it rained heavily for the majority of their home games in 2005.  But what does Lonie do?  He spends the off-season in Michigan and makes it as difficult as possible to buy season tickets in Ottawa.  Hang this one on the Gliebermans - plain and simple.

From GreatWhiteNorth "I've been among the biggest and most vocal critics of the Gliebermans.  I think they're among the worst owners that the CFL has ever seen and that includes a long list of fumblers and bumblers.  Don't think for a moment that I'm cutting them any slack. If, however, football fans in Ottawa are of the belief that by voting with their wallets and not buying tickets they will evict Glieberman and have a knight in shining armor ride to the rescue of the franchise, I think they're sadly mistaken.

This isn't a market like Toronto, whereby the opportunity is big enough to hold on and take another crack at.  This isn't a market like Hamilton, where they've had some struggles, but have a passionate tradition to appeal to.  Ottawa is a market where there's likely a good chunk of the fan base that was disillusioned or lost altogether the last time this mess happened, and just hasn't evidenced itself to be populated with fans willing to stick with the franchise in tough times. As to when the apathy started vs the mismanagement, I'd put forth that the apathy was what forced the previous owners to hold their nose and turn to the Gliebermans in the first place, as the operation wasn't able to be run profitably with what they were getting in terms of support... be it fan base or corporate community.

From Argonut “Geez Ravi. You're the same guy who defended Sherwood for ruining the Argos and now you paste the Gliebs? And for the record. It's Smith who is bailing on Bernie. It's not Bernie deciding to bail out of the blue.  If you were in business and your partner decides to stick you with 100% of the losses ... wouldn't you take time to consider your options?

That's all Bernie is doing and has a right to. As GWN said. The franchise was in turmoil before Bernie came there (He did in fact save them last year) ... so you can't stick it all on him. But then again. It was Firestone and Chen who actually destroyed the team in the 90's ... but it's the Gliebs who seem to have to wear the folding to the "knowledgeable" Ottawa fan base.

From Ravi Ramkissoonsingh “My problem isn't so much with Bernie but with Lonie.  Can anyone justify his gutting of the front office?  Heck, they have no equipment or training staff right now thanks to Lonie and no real media relations person either.  If Bernie sticks with this, I think that the franchise could still turn around simply because Lonie the idiot is gone.

From Argopunk “Ottawa might be a satellite city for the Bills.  The same issue we have had in Toronto for many years.  There's probably more interest in the NFL than the CFL.  If there's any interest at all.  

From Ravi Ramkissoonsingh “I lived in Ottawa for many years and I didn't sense much interest in the Bills there at all.  Yes, there are NFL fans there but I never saw that as a problem for the CFL in Ottawa.  The main problems there for the last quarter century have had to do with how poorly that franchise has been run.

From OV Bandit “ I think some may not grasp how dimly viewed the Gliber-clowns are in Ottawa by a lot of people - mostly potential football fans;  how the clueless dullards who run the CFL ever accepted these morons back in as owners is a real shame - I for one do not believe all potential other ownership scenarios were fully explored and that the myopics who do the thinking for the league panicked and held out their hands for a cheque from G-men because they were there (and hey, surely they learned from their past mistakes).
 
As far as Ottawa attendance - in their 1st year back - 2002 - they easily outdrew the Ticats and the Argos - and look at what has happened for a football resurgence there - same thing could happen in Ottawa with some smart owners rather than idiots in charge that some fans have probably vowed not to support.  And, IMHO (outside of Montreal now, whose CFL team did fold some time back), no CFL fan-base can be throwing stones on this one - who is drawing huge crowds consistently? - i sure see tons of empty seats come play-off time in Alberta for example - a bit of an embarrassment to those who think they are in a football city.  CFL football still has a long way to go to get back to it's one-time glory in terms of interest and appreciation (fans & media) in Canada - pity - but my CFL includes Ottawa.

From GreatWhiteNorth “I'd love nothing more than to see Ottawa respond and save the team. I'd love nothing more than to see a local owner step up and run the team right believing that the fans would respond. I'd love nothing more than to see Ottawa stay in the CFL long into the future. There wasn't, however, enough support to make it viable for smaller-time local owners.  There hasn't been the support even in the face of poor ownership as has been evidenced in some other markets.  It seems like the city never fully embraced the reborn franchise to the point where it cares enough to fight for it. Who, in their right mind, walks into a situation like this where the organization is losing a reported $5 million a year and only paying $3.8 million in salary?  If it was only the Gliebermans that were the problem, I'd say ride it out and wait for them to be forced out like Schwartz was, or Feterik was... but the problems were there before Lonie and Bernie came back, and it's my belief that the problems are with the apathy to the franchise in the market... and that saddens me.

From Ravi Ramkissoonsingh “I have lived in both Ottawa and Hamilton over the years and I believe that there was more apathy regarding the Ticats (pre-Bob Young) than there was towards the CFL in Ottawa.  For most of the time between 1983 and 2003, the Ticats were drawing in the neighborhood of 15k per game.  Even when they had winning seasons and won Grey Cups, they struggled to draw 20k.  Ottawa, on the other hand, has drawn a few thousand better on average over the last quarter century despite not having a winning team since 1979 and a team in the Grey Cup since 1981.  They haven't won a playoff game since 1982 and haven't hosted one since 1983.  If you put Bob Young or the Argos' owners in Ottawa, you would have a huge success story IMO.  The problem facing the CFL and Tom Wright is finding this kind of ownership for Ottawa but there is no doubt IMO that Ottawa can be every bit as successful as the Ticats and Argos have been over the last two seasons with the right ownership.

From GreatWhiteNorth “Wasn't the ownership group of Watters, Watters, Smith, et al pretty local?  Weren't they worthy of the hero title when they brought football back to town the same as what Young gets in Hamilton? I'm not sure that I agree that the Toronto turnaround has anything more to do with ownership than the Montreal turnaround had.  In Toronto, you had owners that pledged to work on an outdoor stadium idea and then backed out only to sign another lease at Skydome.  They deserve a lot of credit in terms of how the team has been marketed and their commitment to having good football people in place behind the scenes as well as keeping a winning core of players together while successfully landing profile parts like Arland Bruce. In Hamilton, Young has definitely stepped up and invested a lot into the stadium and the experience... but those kind of guys don't grow on trees, and Ottawa won't survive waiting around for a guy like that to materialize in all likelihood. I have a lot of doubt that the franchise can make the type of turnaround that Toronto and Hamilton have made in such short order... but I hope I'm wrong.

From Ravi Ramkissoonsingh “The Watters et al. group were not local as they came from southern Ontario.

From Hambone “I'd be curious to see what the football climate would be like in Edmonton today if Eskimo faithful had to endure what Ottawa football fans have been subjected to over the past quarter century. The last time Ottawa entered the playoffs with a winning record was in 1979. Joe Clark was Prime Minister and Ralph Klein was still a year away from being elected to his first term as Mayor of Calgary.

Would there still be 40000+ regularly going through the Commonwealth turnstiles if the Eskimos were boasting a streak of 26 years (21 seasons) without a winning record instead of 34 years without missing the playoffs? Would there still be 40000+ regularly going through the Commonwealth turnstiles if Bernie Glieberman became owner of the Esks and canned Hughie Campbell and replaced him with Lonie? Or if someone like Michael Feterik, Nelson Skalbania, Horn Chen or Sherwood Schwartz bought the club? It's one of those questions we'll never know the answer to but I suspect if the Ottawa cleat were on the Edmonton foot the apathy would be just as bad in the Garlic City as it is in the Nation's Capital.

Let's face ever since your days in the Knothole Gang you haven't had to put up with anything like Ottawa fans have had endure with the possible exception of the Kay Stephenson era of 1998. We all know how much Edmonton fans enjoyed that year. That 6-12 season marks the only losing season for Edmonton fans since 1971. Comparatively speaking Ottawa has had to endure Kay Stephenson football year in and year out since 1979. Actually for many of those years Ottawa fans could only dream their team could treat them with a Stephenson-like 6-12 record.

As a Lions fan I've had to put up with some stretches of bad football, fan apathy, poorly run organization and ownership turnover and turmoil. I can tell you it isn't a lot of fun keeping up the faith over 4 or 5 years. I can't imagine what it would be like if it was 25 years of the same stuff. Edmonton fans have been fortunate enough to not have to deal with anything like the dry stretches most teams endure much less what Ottawa has dealt with. Even a grizzled veteran like Eskinator would struggle to dig back into his childhood memories of the 60's to find a point in time where football in Edmonton resembled what the last 25 years have been like in Ottawa.

I was fearful of the news of the Glieberman's returning to Ottawa. He'd already struck out in Ottawa once before and Shreveport. This was his 3rd crack at the CFL can to see if he'd learned anything from the first two failures. To me it wasn't unlike Skalbania buying the Lions. Yes he bought them when nobody else would, but you could still hear Lion fans tearing up their season ticket renewals the minute it was announced. In the case of the Glieberman's I was willing to give them another chance. However unlike Ottawa football fans I had nothing emotionally invested in the team. Ottawa fans had already endured one disastrous ownership term with them and many weren't about to swallow another one. In many ways the Glieberman's return to Ottawa was like the Alouettes return to Montreal. It took a few years and some winning football to wipe away the bad taste left behind by the previous renditions of the Aloeuttes/Concorde/Alouettes (hello Skalbania). In fairness to Ottawa fans they gave the Gliebermans a chance to start proving themselves last year, but it was pretty obvious halfway into the season that all they were going to get was another circus. In that regard I really can't blame them.

I think all Ottawa fans want some hope and to see a professionally run organization looking like it was pointed in the right direction. For the first two seasons things moved along like one would expect with an expansion franchise. Then came the ownership thing and there's no doubt all the fan base could see was a repeat of the Horn Chen and Glieberman I era of the early 90's. The novelty of football's return to Ottawa is over. Just like folks from Missouri the fans are saying "Show Me" then we'll come back.

Interestingly in an interview yesterday Bobby Ackles feels football is salvageable in Ottawa even under the Gliebermans. He can relate somewhat. He freely admitted that when he returned to BC he didn't really have a full appreciation for just how badly things had fallen off in BC. Even as he took over he wasn't sure things could be turned around. He credits a lot of the success more to timing than anything else. He acknowledges he was very fortunate that Wally Buono came available when he did followed by Dave Dickenson. Bottom line to Ackles is being able to get the right people in place in the organization. In that regard he thinks Bernie Glieberman can turn things around in Ottawa but he needs to get the right people in place. Without that Ackles doesn't think any organization can be successful regardless of who owns it. When one looks across the league most of the teams have very solid football people in place from top to bottom with the exception of Ottawa.

So I think Ottawa can work, but I can't blame the fans for wanting to see some sort of evidence before they start investing their hard earned dollars.

From GreatWhiteNorth “I can't say what would happen in Edmonton under those hypothetical circumstances, but obviously things wouldn't be the same as they are now... but I'd still be there, just as some of the die-hards are in Ottawa.  Would you acknowledge that fan support plays a role in maintaining a stable, solid, well-run organization, as they've got money in the coffers to keep the product good and the experience first-rate?  Regardless of that though, does it lessen the opinion that I voice, or that of any other fan of a team that's had success?  Just because we haven't lived through it to the same degree, does that mean that our viewpoint isn't meritous?  With the exception of some Rider fans, I can't see that any team's fans have endured what Ottawa's gone through, but I don't believe that it renders any of them less able to comment on the situation or weigh in.

The fact is, the franchise has failed Ottawa and Ottawa has failed the franchise.  Which came first is debatable and there's a laundry list of reasons why each one has let the other down.  This isn't a case where owners have been taking massive profits on the backs of the fans, but rather it's a situation where owners have been taking significant losses since re-opening the doors and for any number of reasons have not been able to connect with the fans.  There needs to be an acknowledgement that this isn't an attractive situation to lure a new owner... other than the stream of hobbiests and absentees that the CFL has always managed to find in these scenarios.  Therefore, Ottawa has to decide if they want this team or no team.

It's somewhat comforting to hear that Ackles believes that it's salvagable, and I hope that he has more inside knowledge than a normal outsider.  I think though, the trust of the fans has been dented far more than in other turnaround markets and it's going to make things that much tougher.

From Hambone “The Riders were the first team that came to mind when I was thinking of someone who may be close to sharing in Ottawa's grief. But relatively speaking they've been a powerhouse compared to the other Riders/Renegades. The Riders have had 10 .500 or better seasons, 11 playoff appearances, 2 Grey Cup trips and 1 Grey Cup win since the last time Ottawa fans saw a winning season. Organizations can usually overcome fan apathy when their team turns things around after 4 or 5 years. But 25 years of a simply poor product interspersed with one or two years where the team reached the lofty heights of mediocrity is more than most sports fans on this planet have ever had to endure. In that regard the fact they still were drawing 15000 last year may be more of a testament to the intestinal fortitude of Ottawa football fans than a signal of their apathy.

I was listening to Glen Kulka on a Team 1040 interview the other day and he raised a question about cities where governments are the major employer citing Washington DC as another example. Just as the Renegades have struggled in Ottawa so have the Senators until getting on their current roll. Ditto several attempts at baseball in Washington. The Redskins seem to be solid though. The Senators played in Washington from 1901 through 1960 before packing their bags and moving on to become the Minnesota Twins. Another version was inaugurated in 1961 and stayed there until 1971 when the moved on to become the Texas Rangers. In 70 years of baseball in Washington the Senators won 1 World Series in 1924 and made 3 Series appearances the last of which in 1933. They never finished higher than 4th in the American League after WWII. It will be interesting to see if the Nationals can stick it out for any length of time. As Kulka mentioned part of the problem with sports teams in either nation's capitals too many people work in government and too many of them expect comps.

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